- cross-posted to:
- europe@feddit.org
- cross-posted to:
- europe@feddit.org
cross-posted from: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/48813307
!!! IF YOU ARE AN EU CITIZEN, PLEASE DO THE FOLLOWING FORM !!!
https://fightchatcontrol.eu/#contact-tool
Be especially sure to select your home country’s permanent representation in the Committee, but selecting everyone the website proposes is a very good idea (and done by default).
Raise your voices and flood their inbox, this might be the last chance we ever get
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Why is this specifically relevant to Linux users?
Well,
- controlling end-to-end encrypted messages is only possible if either the keys/certificates are not secret (which is possible with TLS), or the software on the end-users device is not controlled any more by the user (but perhaps by law enforcement, or companies). This overturns the basis of any FLOSS software system where trust is based on transparency and user control.
- age verification will typically done by a form of attestation, a highly problematic concept. Again, this would require to run software on the users device which can’t be controlled by him or her, which is deceptively called “trusted computing”. (Technically, age verification could be done by other means, but this is not what these proposals aim for).
- in the world of public-key cryptography, which is what TLS , GnuPG, and most other modern systems are based in, encryption and digital signatures are nothing but two sides of the same coin: Who breaks encryption keys necessarily also breaks signature keys. This means it is not possible any more to sign software such as the Linux kernel, or Email clients, or browser packages. Or even banking apps or bootloaders for smart phones. Which means to give control away to the entities, groups or induviduals controlling these keys. Ironically, this will make computing lot less safe, and also undermine trust in communication networks, because communication where we can’t be sure that the communicated symbols are genuine is for humans as worthless as the numbers on fake money. (As a corollary, it is also bad for business: All business is based on some amount of trust. Would you do important business with somebody if the only communication channel you have happens to be a messanger which is a compulsory liar?)
To sum up, this is a massive transfer of control.
him or her
Just say them
These politicians really aren’t afraid of those they were elected to represent…
For their sake I hope they stop this FAFO, before more damage is done.@HaraldvonBlauzahn This is the most clear and concise technical summary detailing the dangers of EU Chat Control so far. Thank you.
I’m tired, boss.
So am I, but they are not.
On your feet, comrade. This is no place to die.
I feel you
Still can’t fucking believe Denmark, my country, supports this. Yeah, it got revised thanks to Denmark, but it shouldn’t be revised, it should be killed.
Denmark not only supports it, it’s the one country that pushes the hardest for it, and did from the start. Which seems weird from my German perspective, because I wouldn’t exactly associate Denmark with a police-state, quite the opposite actually, especially compared to Germany.
the europeans on lemmy continue to insist that americans are ahead of the fascism game; but we still don’t have chat control and have only elected one fascist so far. lol
but we still don’t have chat control
Who needs chat control when you have the Patriot Act and PRISM?
I think electing him twice should count for something.
that’s fair. lol
At much harder the second time.
Every single swing county supposedly went the same way, there’s a county in New York where Harris supposedly had zero votes- despite locals claiming they did.
Alot of sus
Mate, USA is way ahead in fascism. EU isn’t openly disappear / deporting people yet. EU has healthcare, mostly.
Pretty sure fascist already broke off the UK. While I will agree the US is ahead, it is everywhere already.
This is a worldwide problem unfortunately.
This is the moment when “Socialism or Barbarity” is decided. We can either organize, and throw off the chains of capitalism, or we can succumb to the fascist order that the owning class wants.
try saying that you support palestine action publicly in the uk. lol
You know the UK isn’t in the EU anymore right?
You absolutely are ahead of the fascist game, so far ahead that your billionaires are funding European fascists and emboldening them.
our billionaires are also funding the protests again them; one of the walmart heirs is entire responsible for the noking protests.
Only one? Do all if the bootlickers in the house and the senate, as well as JD vance not count?
While we have problems here in Europe and they’re concerning, the US really has this shit on a whole 'nother level. The NSA more or less has ALL the data that enters or exits the country and probably most of what goes around public networks (so just about any ISP) within the country. Your Lemmy instance is hosted in France and from your comment I infer that you’re American (so likely situated in the US), so most likely the communication between you and the instance is all recorded and stored at 33 Thomas Street. They’re just storing everything so they can decrypt it if quantum computing breaks existing algorithms. Then there’s all the tooling the CIA and NSA have built to spy on everyone who has any even somewhat insecure smart device.
Denmark is trying to legislate all this into happening, the US just ignores legislation when something actually disagrees with their spying
Barring civilians from using encryption and software deemed dangerous is a new level imo. These are the tools we have to fight this stuff, maintaining those rights is a big deal.
Oh I agree. If encryption becomes illegal I may actually move to another freaking continent. I have nothing to hide, but I am still not willing to compromise on privacy and security.
it’s not that they’re ignoring it; is that the legistlation doesn’t address buying it from non-government agencies and probably on purpose.
Name one world leader except Trump that can make the stock market crash by speaking… :)
We dont have any big leaders in Europe that most people know by name even.
Its all talk about Trump, Musk, Zuckerberg over here too. Like mini America. There is nobody here who is saying anything people care about. We dont even know their names.
We dont even know their names.
that’s surprising to learn since the likes of farage, le pen have & hocke heavily influencing politics in the uk, france & germinay and meloni winning her election in italy.
Just a question from my ignorance: but is this really enforceable, outside of mainstream apps/services? What happens if someone creates a custom app relying on a custom sever and uses it only among few trusted people?
mainstream
is the keyword here. Mainstream is really big.
They come for the lions share first. You do nothing because you think you’re unaffected. Then later they will come for you. And nobody will do anything for you either.
Of course, professional criminals like yourself (sarcasm) will find a way to escape the law. But I doubt it’s nice to live on the edge of society like that anyway, being unable to interact with most services.
Just an example: Of course you can use a private email service. You don’t need to give a copy of all your communications to Google Mail or outlook. Or medical data.
But what helps that, if 97% of the people you communicate with (including your doctor) use outlook or gmail, and all messages you write them are kindly stored there “for them”?
Yeah, criminals are smarter than politicians anyway. And far more knowledge, with respect to technology.
Able, but no reason to.
For the moment, that would not be enforceable in respect to people with technical knowledge. Enforcing it would require authoritarian control and even China’s Great Firewall has way to circumvent it.
On the other hand, this is already far more difficult than you might think. You could not install such an app from a server authenticated with TLS because the TLS keys might be subverted - the certification chain has national institutions as the top certificate authorities. You would also not be able to install such an app on an Android phone because Google has decided it needs developer attestation to install apps in a way accesible to end users. You can run Linux now but if all that is taken seriously, your options to run Linux might become limited. E.g. you already can’t run many banking apps on phones with user-controlled OS software. Railway apps like the German one already don’t work. In future, you might not even be able to use a municipial library’s or bookstore’s website this way.
But more to the point, the real application case for this kind of civil rights is not some nerd kids which want to play DnD or minecraft on their own server or test their self-written IRC service. The real application case is what we see in the US, people being dragged out of their house and disappearing just because of their ancestry, how they look, being poor or the area they live in. They don’t have time to compile software or configure port-knocking protocols.
Somebody has called these systems of “democratic” mass surveillance uncovered by Snowden “Turnkey Dictatorship” . I for sure wish they would have been wrong.
Well… I assume that might be illegal. Or maybe these rules would only apply to public software? For sure it wouldn’t be enforceable, and it would still allow criminals to use it to communicate privately between each other, but it would make it harder to exploit mainstream public apps (e.g.: WhatsApp) to scam or exploit weaker individuals.
Everything good at Denmark? Why the fuck are your politicians pushing this into the EU council?
It seemed like such a reasonable country 12 months ago.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Because Denmark holds the rotating EU presidency, Denmark is literally required by treaty to work towards compromise when the council cannot agree. If it wasn’t Denmark doing this work, it would be another country holding the EU presidency doing it.
It’s not really about Denmark - it’s about the entire council agreeing with a compromise the presidency has to seek.
It was voted out, that’s it. Nobody forced the danes to re-introduce the matter, especially when it was done with subterfuge.
That’s wrong.
Article 4(3) TEU requires that the country holding the rotating presidency of the council must act in the spirit of sincere cooperation, which means it must act as an “honest broker” and not pursue national interests. This means it must seek to find a compromise if the council cannot agree, which Denmark has done.
Look, I’m not a fan of chat control. But the blame doesn’t lie with the Danes, it’s the whole of the EU one must blame.
because when you have fourteen parties there’s bound to be at least a few fascists hiding behind the curtains. the real problem is that there’s not legislation that prevents this dude from retracting and resubmitting it when it looks like it’s gonna fail
What is this Law Enforcement Working Party?
What is its relationship to the Council?A populace in which it is politically safe to even float this suggestion is weak.
That’s not a surprise, but that’s sad!!
Let’s continue to fight against!!!
Ok, the website says that Germany already opposes it. Is that outdated or what? I don’t want to spam MEPs if they already agree with me.
Spam them regardless. You want them to stay where they are and to argue firmly. Especially coming from Germany when talking about the evil of the surveillance state.
Back in the Merkel-era if Germany opposes it was over.
Un-fucking-believable 😡
Who do we need to kill?
Will this actually happen with 9 member states opposing? I thought they need every memeber state to support it?
All that means it’s that it won’t become EU-wide, could still become applied in those “Yes” voters off their own initiatives
So after opening the link I can select my concerns, insert my name and then send, right?
Why don’t you just try it? 😉
But the answer is: yes.Because after trying it wasn’t even remotely clear if I was doing it correctly and if any recipient was actually selected, so I decided to ask since it’s a pretty important thing that I must not fuck up and I can’t go for trial and error.
Doesn’t it open your email program with all selected addressees?
What did you expect to go horribly wrong?I am sorry if me trying to be sure about what I am doing before starting clicking buttons is bothering you somehow.
Next time you can ignore my question, I’ll wait for someone else’s answer.
Thank you and have a good day.
I don’t think that I’m the one in this conversation who appears to be bothered 🤗
I hope you manage to send the email and wish you a good day too.
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outlaws anonymous communication by requiring every citizen to verify their age before accessing a service
This is likely to be the case in practice, but technologically, it does not have to be the case.
If the age verifiers (which IMO should be the governments themselves[1], but could also be a private third-party, as long as it’s not the same as the social media company) only ever receive a blinded token representing the user, verify the user’s age, and then the user brings that token back to the social media site, unblind it, and present them the signed token, there is no way for the age verifier to track which sites a person visits, and no way for the sites to have any detail about who their users are (other than what they already have).
obviously, it actually shouldn’t be anyone at all: parents should be put in charge of their own kids, and maybe given the tools with robust parental control software to handle it client-side. Government server-side age verification is just not a good option. But if we assume they’re going to do that, we should at least discuss the way it could be done in the least-bad way. ↩︎
Or we just sell anonymous age verified serial numbers at gas stations like prepaid phone cards.
Yeah, but then you can just share them with anyone. In this case, privacy always contradicts effectiveness, and that is why we need to fight the whole idea of age verification altogether.
parents should be put in charge of their own kids,
So convenient that governments and their corporate masters take such a keen interest in watching our kids, after making all their parents spend most of their lives at miserable jobs.
We could also require isps to educate and aid parents in protecting their kids, sending guides and offering to send a guy to set it up, ect. Perhaps with a legal penalty for the parents for failing to do so if their kid actually is harmed somehow. Then the onus is where it belongs, which makes it harder to justify this kind of shit
And for anyone actually bothering to read the legislation instead of joining the band wagon, that’s is literally exactly what the EU proposal calls for: Zero Knowledge Proof.
Question for a the Fight Chat Control website: My country’s primary language is not English, do I need to translate the e-mail?
Yes you should, and it would be even better to use it as a template to write it yourself.
MEPs will pay more attention to messages that seem genuine and from their voters rather than mass-produced by foreigners.
