I notice this with people talking about capitalism, obviously, but honestly what drove me to make this post is the attempted arguments against veganism. They’re basically 95% unoriginal and fail under the most basic of scrutiny.
Take, for example, “not eating the meat won’t bring the cow back.” Under basically any logical scrutiny, this is a clear double standard to any other purchasing decision in capitalist society, and doesn’t really make any sense. But I’ve seen in so many times over the years, so much so that im planning on becoming a vegan over a period of time. Not because of any arguments vegans make, but because somehow pro-meat eaters are losing a debate to a brick wall, and the conclusions I’ve made myself have convinced myself that I should be vegan. And I’m really starting to ask, do people just…like…ctrl+c ctrl+v arguments in their head?
I…try to be nice. But…how little respect to your own ability do you have if you do that? Not only to justify something you really don’t have to, but something you obviously dont care about. I mean…sorry, it’s just baffling to me.
In the words of Kim Kitsuragi from disco elysium, “I dont understand officer…please, help me understand”
But correct. How much more respectfully can someone point out your speciesism which is necessary for you to continue your role in the animal holocaust?
What exactly do you hope to accomplish with nonsense like this.
That you realise that booty is disagreeing as respectfully as possible, but that your material interests have you interpreting it as a personal attack.
It was a personal attack. As was you calling me “speciesist” and saying it’s necessary for me to “continue my role” in “the animal holocaust.”
What I don’t understand is why neither of you will take accountability for your words. If you truly believe an “animal holocaust” as you call it is going on and has been going on for decades (if not longer), I would think decorum would not exactly be your greatest concern. I’d also think that trying to shame people into boycotting on the internet would not be your greatest concern, considering how limited the power of both unorganized boycotts and personal shaming are. I am trying to put myself in what I can best imagine as your perspective and it makes no sense to me with a charitable analysis. The direction I keep leaning toward as an explanation is that it’s such an emotional thing for some people, they lose perspective on it in relation to everything else, but that seems like an unfair way to see it.
I just know that I could not function as a person if I took on the whole weight of the atrocities of capitalism and imperialism, let alone one issue. I could say that China sucks because it is not doing enough on the issue of Palestine, in spite of its global power and influence. I could rail against every country and individual who is not sacrificing to bring an end to it. I don’t think that will be effective though. I honestly don’t know what will be effective. I am scared that people are just going to keep getting murdered and it will be too late for them as a people. I am scared for the other peoples in the region, who also face threats from the colonial project there. I think about it near every day and if I felt I needed to chastise someone about it, I would not be concerned with someone viewing it as a personal attack because I would feel it is justified to do; I would only be concerned with the rules of the forum and being disruptive to it, if that is part of the context. So I would probably own it. If that’s what this feels like for you, then own your behavior and accept that it’s something you feel is justified in that moment.
It seems you believe it is disrespectful to have a different opinion at all.
This is what you said about me almost immediately after saying “with all due respect”. Based on absolutely nothing. Make up your mind. If you want to be disrespectful, just do it, don’t pretend you’re being “nice.”
Well, no, this is based on your outrage at vegans pointing out the horrific crimes we commit against our fellow inhabitants of the world. If you had respect for cows, or pigs, or chickens, of which we murder such incredible numbers that it is difficult even to wrap our heads around the scale of the horror in question, you would fully understand why it is appropriate and reasonable to compare their plight to other genocides that we all recognize.
I’m not being disrespectful, I’m just disagreeing with you. If you can’t handle disagreement, reconsider posting on a public forum.
It is disrespectful to paint someone as having no “respect for the other living, thinking, feeling creatures we share this Earth with” based on zero evidence; because you disagree with what I said, you decided to vilify someone you don’t know and whose perspective you clearly don’t understand. Now you portray me as being “outraged at vegans” which is also baseless. I expressed outraged at a person trivializing an ongoing genocide of human beings by comparing it to factory farming, which I believe is a reasonable reaction and still do, and believing that does not somehow mean I don’t care about animals. If that were how things worked, then it would never be reasonable to insist one issue is worse than another, lest you are accused of not caring about the “lesser” issue.
Prior to that, what I did was go through a perspective, one which is common in socialist/communist circles for talking about capitalism as a whole, for why the solution to something is not as simple as individuals making the “correct” moral choice in their individual lives. This is an issue with capitalism that we talk about over and over and it doesn’t suddenly become irrelevant just because it’s an issue you might care more about.
And BTW, the more shock value rhetoric and spurious attacks you and others pull out on this, the harder it becomes to take any of you seriously. I will still believe factory farming is an issue either way and I will still support those who go vegan for trying to do something about it, no matter how small. But I certainly don’t see any reason to listen to any of you who have gone 0 to 100 at me about it.
Again, not zero evidence. My evidence is the words you said. The words which stem from your lack of respect for other animals.
A vegan
comparing one horrific crime against innocents to another.
That you frame it this way stems from your lack of respect for the innocents in question.
In my opinion it does.
Murdering ten people is obviously worse than murdering two people, but you would never accuse someone of “trivializing” the murder of ten people if they compared these two hypothetical events.
The issue isn’t that you see one issue as wrong and another issue as worse–you don’t see genocide against non-human animals as wrong at all. That’s why you find it outrageous to compare it to genocides against humans, which you do see as wrong.
Okay. Let’s consider this perspective in regard to another issue. “You choosing not to buy from Israel isn’t going to instantly end the genocide in Palestine. Therefore it is completely cool and okay to give any amount of monetary support to Israel.” You surely wouldn’t agree with this statement, right? Then why express this stance with regard to other crimes? (The answer of course is that you don’t think animal abuse is a crime, you like and support it and would prefer if we vegans would simply stop pointing out how horrific it is.)
You’re the only one attacking anyone by smugly saying how much restraint you have not to hurl insults at us for holding basic vegan positions, and by saying we “can’t be taken seriously” and so on.
That’s something you’re projecting onto me. I’m not trying to be smug at all. When I said I was trying not to say something nasty, I meant it very literally because I was upset about what the other person had said and was quite literally trying not to devolve into insults/rudeness over it. When I said “I certainly don’t see any reason to listen to any of you who have gone 0 to 100 at me about it”, I meant that too very literally.
Not everything is about feeling morally superior. Maybe I just don’t want to listen to you go off on me. Would you want to listen to yourself?
Dawg this is a 1. I’m being very polite. The problem is that any disagreement with you is a 100 in your mind.
Yeah actually. I originally went vegan because of people being at least a 50 compared to my 1. And I realized, “Huh, this person is right. I have no logical response to their criticisms of my unethical behavior.” Then I went vegan.
It’s your turn. Look into your heart; you know you’re wrong, but you don’t want to admit that you’ve spent your entire life up till now being wrong. Believe me, no one cares. The time to change is now.