Fair enough. The proposed VÜPF changes suck balls.
Good, fuck the swiss if they try to kill privacy, it was the only reason they got so much investment from the west.
People here be acting like no one uses chatbots.
I like Lumo, be it only because I can use it instead of US or Chinese LLMs. Hope they help drive european AI development. And I’m quite sure Proton thought about their 1 billion investment a bit before announcing it.
You can refuse to use LLMs, but I doubt the use of AI will ever decrease again.
Mistral AI is another EU alternative for now. There is talk into it being sold, but for now it is still from Europe.
I think Lumo is based on Mistral models
Their chat is still running in the datacenters of one of the three big us cloud providers, but at least the models are European for now.
It just needs a dark theme. Work computer is powerful enough that I can run local models and use it occasionally. A cloud one that’s just using similar open models as what you can easily download is fine to me.
Proton does have aot of work to do understandable to people’s annoyance with them. Lack of Linux Drive application but they’ve released alpha/beta API for Drive. Drive performance isn’t great yet. The Docs feature is pretty barebones for now. Calendar is too simple for power users. Regardless for now they’re the closest privacy centric replacement for Google services
They need to fire their CEO and get an executive suite that can develop good products and not just copy Google while adding keywords related to “privacy” and “freedoms” in their marketing copytext.
That’s the exact same thing as Google.
I say this as long time Proton user and subscriber.
Except that’s exactly what we want. Google services that respect privacy and aren’t full of ad cancer.
I mean… Why not?
I want Gmail without Google. Protonmail sells that to me, seems like a win/win.
Same for other services.
Lucky, they sell a way better solution than Gmail. Even changing the few accounts that used my Gmail caused 25% of the mails to not ever be received by Gmail.
I don’t think they can make a direct competitor. An LLM is expensive to run and getting a good LLM model requires lots of spend.
I like the idea of a private cloud LLM, but based on my experience with Mistral (an EU based LLM service), it is noticeably less useful than ChatGPT and especially Gemini for work use cases.
Bases on some basic test prompts (related to finding sources and documents related to specific parts of government budgets in different countries all around the world), Lumo did not perform well. Only some general suggestions for sources were provided.
It would be great to see Lumo improve, but I have my doubts.
They need to NOT have an LLM. Period. I want a light weight, inexpensive, security focused email/docs platform with zero AI.
Imo, having Proton just copy Google but actually be private is exactly what I want. Of course, if they stray away from privacy then there will be issues. I also feel like they are making good stuff. As a subscriber myself I don’t have many issues with their offering other than the stuff they don’t provide but Google does.
They’ll never do it. They’ve proven they have no integrity and your data is too valuable.
Never do what exactly? Continue to be private?
100% spot on
I don’t believe they will be able to compete with Google/OpenAI in a direct battle by having a 1:1 LLM product copy but with privacy. The costs are likely too high for an organisation like Proton and their LLM is likely to have significantly subpar output.
Don’t get me wrong, I am all for a private, cloud LLM, but I would rather they came up with novel usability features, a better front-end for evaluating sources (and faster identification of errors and hallucinations) and so on.
I am not seeing any of that.
Fair enough, I would also prefer if they pushed out an online excel/power point alternative before this or or allowed for more cloud storage.
That being said, I also don’t think this is a bad thing to do. It seems to work alright so if they can at least be at that level then that’s fantastic. I do wish they pooled their resources with other open source AI models cause that would be more efficient but maybe they have a good reason. I’ve just not looked into it cause I don’t use AI that often
I use LLMs as a complement to search and Luma is far worse than even Le Chat from Mistral for moderately complex prompts.
Luma is also notable slower (to an unacceptable level).
I would they rather they focused on existing services. I use their email services and it’s pretty good. Based on reviews, it seems that their cloud storage offering isn’t on that level.
I don’t believe they will be able to compete with Google/OpenAI in a direct battle
I don’t know about that. From my experience, community AI models (both image generation and LLMs) are often far, far superior to whatever large corporations can dish out within the same size bracket
The difference is that Google scans your private correspondence and can report you to authorities for any reason, legit or not.
That’s a fair argument. Although I personally wouldn’t put too much emphasis on “can report you to authorities for any reason”. That’s true of any third party, your local mini-mart can report you to the authorities for any reason, legit or not.
I am referring more to the Lumo LLM initiative. It’s a standard LLM pitch with some privacy copytext added on.
While I haven’t tried Lumo, I do have experience with smaller cloud LLMs (e.g. Mistral, trying to not use American services) and they tend to be subpar for my work use cases.
I don’t see how Lumo will compete with ChatGPT or Gemini (haven’t tried Grok for obvious reasons).
Although I personally wouldn’t put too much emphasis on “can report you to authorities for any reason”
They literally sent police after some poor dude based on their correspondence with a doctor
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2022/08/googles-scans-private-photos-led-false-accusations-child-abuse
Google does not have the authority to “send the police”. They reported content that looked like CSAM and the police did what police do and assumed the guy was a criminal.
The problem is not that they reported it, the problem is that they had it in the first place.
Agreed, that’s pretty fucked up.
However, on some level it’s to be expected that 3rd parties may report you if they feel you are engaging illegal activities (especially on their premises).
While I don’t support technological backdoors, there are legitimate for society to engage in surveillance. It’s the responsibility of voters to make sure that this is done in a responsible and transparent manner.
Although I personally wouldn’t put too much emphasis on “can report you to authorities for any reason”. That’s true of any third party
Not true of Proton.
I don’t see how Lumo will compete with ChatGPT or Gemini
The same way it competes with all their other products; by making it private and open source.
Proton AI never makes sense in the first place.
Developing more slop AI but still no Linux drive client.
Not a single soul asked for it, waste of company resources.
This is how I feel. I’m not really okay with the money I pay getting used to develop ML and crypto BS.
For those who didn’t read the article
“If the proposals pass, Proton’s services in Switzerland would be less private than Google’s,” Mr Yen told Le Temps. Frustrated by the lack of assurances from Beat Jans, the federal councillor overseeing the matter, Proton has opted to halt Swiss investments and shift its infrastructure plans abroad. Its artificial-intelligence data centres, deemed especially sensitive, will be located in Germany and Norway and involve investing CHF 100 million.
how do I check what this said?
Ctrl+f
deleted by creator
Yeah Russia’s the only one who gets Proton data
No so does France. Proton helped convict a French environmental activist by providing the courts full access to their private proton account.
Proton nor Tuta nor anybody else is above the law, you can read independant reports on the matter https://scroll.in/article/1084862/why-a-court-ban-on-encrypted-email-service-proton-mail-has-sparked-digital-privacy-fears or Proton’s own post about it https://proton.me/blog/climate-activist-arrest
But I don’t believe that their entire account was shared with the police, but if that actually did happen and you have a proper source for it I gotta think to move my mail after all, so could you please share with the class where you read this?
It’s not about the law, but what’s right to me.
Proton according to this post is virtue signalling. Claiming one thing, then doing the other.
Gonna need something a little more solid than your feelsies.
It is about the law, though. Proton has always been clear about the possibility that they are required to hand over data if the Swiss government requires it: https://proton.me/legal/transparency
So IDK where you are getting that they are saying one thing and doing another thing and even more important where you got that they shared ENCRYPTED data. Cause if they have the ability to even do that I have to rethink my choose since that should be impossible if Proton did it correctly and are trustworthy.
Proton did not only hand over data to the Swiss courts, but the French courts via that. They didn’t just comply with national laws, but those of other countries.
That contradicts their virtue signalled interest in privacy, when they’re willing to surrender any data without even putting up a fight. They did not even try to argue in courts against handing over private data. And considering this lead to the arrest of the activist, it either obviously wasn’t encrypted or Proton had the means to decrypt it on their end.
You can’t just link Proton’s own PR speak as a source to counter that. Of course they would defend themselves.
Yes they did because most countries have some form of agreement that they share data when legally requested. It is pretty hard to bypass that, but it is duable (Mullaval VPN f.e.)
They didn’t just surrender the data, they started collecting it at first
The first link Ecosia showed https://archive.is/2022.04.11-095001/https://www.wired.com/story/protonmail-amends-policy-after-giving-up-activists-data/
And let me remind you that there is a non-profit above it and they need to handle for the purpose that was created which is still Protons core businesses. They make more money just doing whats right than not because otherwise people would go back to something free or go to Tuta/Mulivad
such a large statement with such little evidence
Sounds like something a RUSSIAN would say /s
Wrong bogeyman here, the more worrying problem is the CEO endorsing the US republicans, seemingly (and charitably) due to the ostensibly pro-privacy policy position, ignoring all the other policy advocation attached to endorsing them or their track record of doublespeak particularly around things like privacy.
Proton is owned by an actual non-profit (not one of those fake once you have in the US) and Andy is only 1/3rd of it so he cannot really do much alone, plus he still needs to follow the objective for the non-profit otherwise he can be held personally responsible.
Personally, I live in a country where you can vote for hundreds of politicians, and we have multiple parties ruling the country and I don’t believe that agreeing with one statement is enduring anybody.
Still, Andy Yen is an idiot and Proton needs some extra governance structure to keep him in check (firing him is going to be a hard one since he still owns shares IIRC). Believe what you want and choose to use Proton or not, but it doesn’t help the cause for the people to be more critical without giving context.
This was said by Andy directly: https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:640/format:webp/1*9_3JV1BBIZjAYkoTDQzOlg.png This was said by Andy through Proton: https://archive.ph/quYyb And this was his later comment from his own account: https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:720/format:webp/1*Pz-ct2LGRpxWdKsHSZu1Rg.png
That’s what I said - Russia, GOP… no difference
That was a verrry disappointing and tone deaf comment from him, yeah. He could have said that neither party is committed to Proton’s values and been done with it, instead he kissed the ring.
Yeah I’m not buying any excuses. One supports trump, one gets the fuck out.
Would you mind elaborating?
