This sounds more like someone with a grudge against America than a fascist. “Eat shit, Americans” isn’t exactly a controversial position in most of the world, for what I hope are obvious reasons.
“I’m glad the fascists won so minorities in America can suffer” is a pretty fascist statement to make. Imagine saying “I’m glad Putin won the election, I hope liberasts and Russians suffer”
Which I could easily see coming from a Chechen so you’re kinda proving my point. Also while minorities are going to suffer more, everyone suffers under fascism except subservient rich males of the right ethnicity, so there’s plenty of suffering to go around for, say, Zionists and imperialists. They’re misguided, but this comment alone doesn’t make them a fascist.
I took it more as “these people who benefitted by all the destruction and war the US committed in their names are finally feeling the sting and might actually be driven to do something about it”.
Which I could easily see coming from a Chechen so you’re kinda proving my point.
… is your point that supporting fascism is okay if you really hate a country?
Also while minorities are going to suffer more, everyone suffers under fascism except subservient rich males of the right ethnicity, so there’s plenty of suffering to go around for, say, Zionists and imperialists.
That’s fucking insane reasoning.
They’re misguided, but this comment alone doesn’t make them a fascist.
So if, say, an American liberal said, “I’m glad Egypt is under a strongman regime so Egyptians can suffer”, you would regard that as a… non fascist statement??
… is your point that supporting fascism is okay if you really hate a country?
Supporting fascism is one thing, thinking one group of people deserves it for something they did is another. It’s a misguided version of thinking Nazis did a good job with rocket technology.
you would regard that as a… non fascist statement??
I mean, yes? I’d also hate their guts, but no there’s nothing inherently fascist about that statement. And while it’d be really weird coming from an American, I wouldn’t be able to object too hard to it coming from a Palestinian, because we do bear responsibility for not standing up to our Zionist stooges.
Supporting fascism is one thing, thinking one group of people deserves it for something they did is another.
How many steps removed is that from “Jews deserve the Holocaust because what they did” or “Palestinians deserve the Nakba and the ongoing genocide because of what they did”?
It’s a misguided version of thinking Nazis did a good job with rocket technology.
Okay, but that entire line of thinking, while ridiculous, is still predicated on the idea of a positive contribution by fascists, whereas this is explicitly negative. “I’m glad fascists won because they will hurt innocent people” is not a net gain to anyone - or at least not anyone who isn’t a fascist.
I mean, yes? I’d also hate their guts, but no there’s nothing inherently fascist about that statement.
I disagree strongly. Supporting fascist regimes for the sole purpose that it hurts innocent folk is not much more than fascism itself.
How many steps removed is that from “Jews deserve the Holocaust because what they did” or “Palestinians deserve the Nakba and the ongoing genocide because of what they did”?
The real sticking point in that line of logic is that it’s impossible for an ethnic group as a whole to have done something, and that the charges tend to be made up. Nothing is inherently fascist about the prospect of seeking justice against a large group of people.
“I’m glad fascists won because they will hurt innocent people” is not a net gain to anyone - or at least not anyone who isn’t a fascist.
I’ll be frank, you have to stretch the meaning of the word quite a bit before your average American is considered innocent. If your labor is directly or indirectly support evil that you’re supporting or not opposing, well congrats you’re an accomplice. Whether it’s productive to seek punishment and what would constitute a just punishment aside, the majority of Americans bear some amount of guilt for their government’s current and historical crimes. I mean I certainly wouldn’t think “oh it was only the government that was guilty!” when talking about Nazi Germany.
The real sticking point in that line of logic is that it’s impossible for an ethnic group as a whole to have done something, and that the charges tend to be made up. Nothing is inherently fascist about the prospect of seeking justice against a large group of people.
Against a ‘large group’, no; against a group for the purpose of group identity instead of crimes committed by the individuals therein? Uh, yes, very much so. This is not very far removed from current Israeli policy which is willing to parade around “good Arabs” while condemning the vast majority of Palestinians as implicitly guilty of attacking civilians.
I’ll be frank, you have to stretch the meaning of the word quite a bit before your average American is considered innocent. If your labor is directly or indirectly support evil that you’re supporting or not opposing, well congrats you’re an accomplice. Whether it’s productive to seek punishment and what would constitute a just punishment aside, the majority of Americans bear some amount of guilt for their government’s current and historical crimes.
Yikes. And would you say the same about Egyptians?
I mean I certainly wouldn’t think “oh it was only the government that was guilty!” when talking about Nazi Germany.
… and would that warrant, do you think, the entire German nation being punished - not simply in the abstract sense of the nation, or in the punishment of the government, but in actively inflicting suffering and punishment upon individuals for the crime of doing what most people, historically, do under horrific governments - keep their heads down and try to survive?
For that matter, would you regard that inaction as similarly damning in other cases - for example, a failure to prevent fascism? And, again, relevant to the core of this issue - would that failure then morally justify inflicting very real and serious punishment on them?
For that matter, would you say, like the OP, “I’m so glad Hitler was elected, I hope the social fascists and Germans suffer?”
I’m not agreeing with it, but to translate its more along the lines of “You Americans have spent so long being comfortable and benefitting from the imperialist project of the US and all the death and destruction it perpetrates across the world and have not offered any resistance to their own government in all this time. Liberals have been content to be complaicent in it too as long as a woman gets to drop some of those bombs, for fairness. Now you won’t be able to avoid the consequences of the evil imperialist core that all these other countries have been crushed under for over a century and may actually be driven to do something about it, since it actually affects you now.”
Which again I don’t agree with, but can also aknowledge that its more nuanced than just wishing harm for harm’s sake.
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“I hope there is a genocide in the US” usually is a controversial position. So is killing all political opponents.
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I’m Canadian and I don’t want Americans to suffer. But the US has shitty politicians in power that force me between making a choice between people in my own country eating shit or the US eating shit, and the choice is obvious.
The far left and far right are using the same tactics, just different targets for their hate politics.
Hopefully Americans see through the bullshit of the radicals (both left and right) that make them hate certain people in their own country and people in certain other countries (again, the targets vary but the tactics are the same). But it seems there’s not much anyone outside of the US can do until that happens.
Is this far-left hate politics in the room with us right now?
… man, we’re in MeanwhileonGrad, where such luminary views are on display as “Ukronazis deserve to be murdered, critical support for Russian imperialism!”
You can say that they aren’t really leftists - and I’m not entirely inclined to disagree - but there’s a definite self-identified leftist element of legitimate insane hate that goes around.
Yes, but more often “far-left hate” is a dog whistle for anti-Zionism, because tankies just aren’t such a major political phenomenon as to warrant a mention along with the far-right. Also the person I replied to is a known Zionist, so I’m not inclined to interpret their statement charitably.
Ah, I didn’t realize they were a Zionist.
Ah so you’re keeping lists of “known zionists” now?
You’re in a political group that maintains an enemies list. You got a list of Jews and known sympathizers of Jews on your enemies list. At what point are you going to start asking “are we the baddies?”
If the facts are on your side you don’t need to keep track of those that disagree with you. You don’t need to engage in harassment campaigns. You actually want to discuss the issues with those that disagree with you because that discussion would prove you to be right.
Your group engages in harassment campaigns because you know the facts aren’t on your side.
BTW, you’re not on my enemies list, because I don’t have one. I don’t need to use the tactics you use because your own words prove you to be in the wrong.
Wow. Do you intend to burn these strawmen together with your effigy of Yitzhak Rabin or are they so you can imagine you’re shooting Palestinian children in the head?
I’m sure that sounded like something in your head, but what are you even talking about? Are you acussing me of shooting Palestinian children?
This is just a web forum, calm your tits.
If the facts are on your side you don’t need to keep track of those that disagree with you.
I don’t know if you’re a Zionist personally because I haven’t looked into it, but pattern recognition is absolutely a useful tool. When the same ghouls who bootlick the Holodomor come out and start spreading edge-case bullshit about other issues, knowing that they’re genocide-denying ghouls helps contextualize what they’re saying and give the appropriate amount of pushback; something that might be overkill for someone who’s just innocently ignorant.
If someone who denies the Holodomor, for example, starts talking about how they heard about far-right paramilitaries in Ukraine influencing the country, they’re much more likely to be utter ghouls playing dumb. Whereas someone who does not deny the Holodomor saying the same might be a guy who half-remembered one article on Ukraine in 2015 and simply doesn’t have up-to-date or in-depth knowledge on the subject.
Yes, and I hear a lot about how the far right Jews are influencing the West. I also hear about how the far left Jews are influencing the West. It all depends on which audience these narratives are being promoted to. I hear these narratives all the time these days.
Which of these narratives are you promoting? The far-right narrative or the far right narrative? It doesn’t matter it’s all the same. From pattern recognition (LOL) I’m going to say you’re one of the ghouls promoting these narratives to rationalize why the evil acts perpetrated on October 7 were justified.
This is a webforum. I’m not in the same room as you.
No politician is owed votes for anything
Every election politicians need to offer things that they will then do when elected in order to attract voters.
When they don’t do the things they say they will do, that makes them a liar.
It’s amazing how many people fail to understand that when a party loses an election, it’s the fault of the party and nobody else.
When they don’t do the things they say they will do, that makes them a liar.
There are times when a promise can’t be fulfilled. It has become wildly more difficult for Democratic priorities to pass through the legislative process in the last 25 years as Republicans have used more and more obstructive tactics. I think a very good case could be made that Republicans have tilted the table enough to completely block a Democratic agenda even if they took Congress and the Presidency.
Lisa Murkowski got fucked by her own party literally this week. She negotiated and got legislation passed, only for Trump to basically line item veto it with an executive order.
And I’m so old I can remember when the Supreme Court struck down the line item veto. How can you possibly get an agenda through when there are no rules but what the Roberts court says there is?
When people promise me things and don’t fulfill them i consider that a broken promise.
I have no sympathy for Dems who take power and then whine that their hands are tied.
Maybe they should let someone with balls be in power if they want to change things.
What would that look like in real terms?
It would look like a Democrat that tells their rich doners they they are going to be forced to make concessions.
There has been tens of trillions of dollars funneled to a group of less than 5,000 people over the last 50 years.
I think you’re giving Republicans way too much credit. Democrats are completely incapable of unifying on anything important, and that’s why they don’t get their stuff through. They need better leadership if they’re going to get anything done.
What would that look like in real terms?
Basically whatever the Republicans are doing, but on the opposite side of policy. Get candidates that people actually like and push popular policy. Kamala Harris and Joe Biden weren’t it, neither was an infrastructure bill or whatever it was Harris pushed for. Get people excited and rally the party around them.
The best shot dems had recently was Bernie Sanders, but they sandbagged him in favor of Hillary Clinton.
But no, dems instead prefer infighting.
I largely agree with you. The Democratic party is a disaster. The evergreen tactic of throwing the coalition under the bus in order tack to the middle for some imagined Reagan Democrat vote that doesn’t exist is infuriating and the policy that results is dogshit.
The only part I would argue with is that Old Joe ended up with policy that looked a whole lot more progressive than I thought he ever would. I think he deserves a lot of credit for trying. If he could have defended his policy with the voice of a young modern progressive, people would think much higher of his accomplishments.
But yea, I agree with you.
No politician is owed votes for anything
I’m so glad you think Nazis should murder minorities because Blue Circus didn’t ‘earn’ our lives.
Thanks.
It’s amazing how many people fail to understand that when a party loses an election, it’s the fault of the party and nobody else.
Tell me, who makes the decision on which party wins in a democratic election?
Is it:
A. The Sports Performance of Good Team and Bad Team
OR
B. The votes of the electorate, who choose who will have access to the levers of power going forward
?
Nope. The correct answer is C. The oligarchs who control the media and tell people who to vote for.
Yes, I remember when I last saw a media clip and the oligarchs beamed their brainwashing wave into my head and changed my ballot.
At some point you have to grapple with the fact that the average person on the fucking street? Their values are abhorrent, and their policy positions are even worse.
But no, instead of trying to grapple with reality, the preference is overwhelmingly to portray the People™ as holy and correct DEEP DOWN if only you BROKE THEIR CHAINS by giving them the special words that no one has fucking found yet.
Democracy is not a fucking guarantee of good or sensible policy or leaders. All democracy is is a reflection of the will of the people - and a citizenry which does not take its civic duty seriously gives us results like Trump. The oligarchs are thrilled about this and interested in perpetuating it, but the blame lays on voters, who are overwhelmingly the ones with the actual power in the system, but who choose, time and time again, to elect people who tell them things that conform to their preconceptions and prejudices
You’re giving people way too much credit. Those of us who dig deep and really think about this are a small minority. Most people vote for whoever their favorite news source tells them to. When those news sources are corporate owned, you end up flipping a coin between two corporate approved candidates.
It sure doesn’t help having people like you acting like voting for a third party is the same as voting for whichever candidate you don’t like. You’re doing the oligarchs work for them. Harris lost, by a wide margin. She didn’t have a chance. Does that mean a vote for Harris was a vote for trump? Do you see how stupid that logic is?
You’re giving people way too much credit. Those of us who dig deep and really think about this are a small minority. Most people vote for whoever their favorite news source tells them to.
And that is a problem, not a forgivable quirk.
It sure doesn’t help having people like you acting like voting for a third party is the same as voting for whichever candidate you don’t like. You’re doing the oligarchs work for them.
I’m doing the oligarchs’ work for them by… trying to ensure the LESS pro-oligarch candidate wins, the less pro-oligarch candidate who also has the extremely appealing trait of not being a literal fucking Nazi?
Harris lost, by a wide margin. She didn’t have a chance.
What.
Do you… do you know what Harris lost by?
Does that mean a vote for Harris was a vote for trump? Do you see how stupid that logic is?
what.
The point of pointing out that throwing away your vote was a vote for the fucking Nazi is that in a FPTP system with near-majority support from two candidates, one of them is going to win the election. When September ran around and third-parties were still polling under fucking 1%, THAT was the time to fucking consider maybe voting for the anti-fascist coalition candidate. In such a system, not voting or protest voting is effectively a half-vote contribution to whomever the eventual winner is - and guess who the fucking winner was? The goddamn Nazi.
You seem to think the average American is capable of using reason, has intellectual curiosity, and has morals.
The average American is literally too dumb to ever do any of that, and screaming into the void doesn’t change that.
Politicians need to notice more than half the country is braindead and checked out and act accordingly.
You seem to think the average American is capable of using reason, has intellectual curiosity, and has morals.
The average American is literally too dumb to ever do any of that, and screaming into the void doesn’t change that.
Politicians need to notice more than half the country is braindead and checked out and act accordingly.
In what ever-loving fucking way are politicians running on the presumption that American voters are using reason, intellectual curiousity, or morals?
You’re asking them to change their strategy to… what they’re already operating under.
And that is a problem, not a forgivable quirk.
And you’re outnumbered by these people 100 to 1 and you think you’re going to vote harder than them.
trying to ensure the LESS pro-oligarch candidate wins
No you’re right I’m sure the oligarchs hate it when you vote for one of the two candidates they hand picked for you. Nice primaries by the way.
Do you… do you know what Harris lost by?
31 states. 86 electoral votes. That’s 16 percent of 538. A wider margin than 4 of the 7 presidents elected this century.
In such a system, not voting or protest voting is effectively a half-vote contribution to whomever the eventual winner is
Right, it’s electoral quantum superposition. Shroedinger’s ballot. Get the fuck out of here. A vote for a third party is a vote for a third party. Staying home is voting for no one. Stop getting your logic from bumper sticker slogans. It’s dumb.
And you’re outnumbered by these people 100 to 1 and you think you’re going to vote harder than them.
What the fuck are you talking about?
No you’re right I’m sure the oligarchs hate it when you vote for one of the two candidates they hand picked for you. Nice primaries by the way.
You mean the primaries where no one of substance ran and Biden, the winner of the 2020 primaries, won effectively by default?
So glad that military-grade morons like you are out here asspatting letting the more oligarch friendly candidate win as some sort of 4d chess against oligarchy. Putting your own goddamn nuts in a vise and calling it strategy when they pop like grapes.
31 states. 86 electoral votes.
Nice dodge. Less than 2% of the vote, genius.
Right, it’s electoral quantum superposition. Shroedinger’s ballot. Get the fuck out of here.
Jesus fucking Christ, I’m sorry basic math is equivalent to quantum physics in your limited comprehension.
Dear Tankies
My life matters too much to be pointlessly sacrificed so we can throw the election by voting for Jill Stein
Sincerely, a transwoman not in a blue state.
Sincerely, a transwoman not in a blue state.
All my trans siblings have my sympathy in this fucking shit-ass time we live in, but especially those not in blue states. I hope you make it out - whether out of the state, or out of this period of fucked up time we live in.
Both, I suppose.
I do feel it would be better if they voted 3rd party tho. We know more about those throw away votes than we do of the non-voting group. Gives the big tent party some solid statistics on how to pivot to get them on board for a coalition. It might also mean that we get more 3rd party election wins on local stuff. Tho I think that last part matters more in blue states. As someone who cannot quite move out if their red state I get what you are saying too. My last congress vote had a standard corporate democrat vs a MTG clone.
If you’re in a swing state, sure, vote strategically. But if you’re not, voting for a third party has a lot higher chance of sending a useful signal to the dominant party.
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I actually think the lesson is (from listening to lefties, tankies and to dems after the election):
If your strategy relies on votes from the 1% fringes, then you’re probably going to lose. If you can’t convince normies to vote for you, you’re lost.
Both are necessary, is the issue. The normies aren’t politically active enough to reliably push a majority of the vote, and the fringe is (by definition) not large enough to do it itself.
You end up with 45% normies and 5.1% fringes, and losing even a little sliver of either means you lose.
Politics in this country is fucked.
But the fringes are fickle, that’s what I’m saying, if they are decisive, they will disappoint you. There is a long list of demands that you’ll never be able to meet or if you do, you’re potentially going to anger the right-wing of your voters and lose more than you get.
Yep. But then the fringes are always decisive, and there’s no way around that - so every election we end up playing a game of “Holy fucking shit are we going to get screwed again??” and, as Kamala demonstrated in attempting to appeal to a greater volume of normies with her “Country over party” schtick, there’s not really a lot of room for replacing the fringe with normies. The normies are mostly already decided or tuned-out, and trying to pump their votes up gives diminishing returns for the effort at this point - at the expense of the fringes.
Shit’s fucked. To unfuck it, we have to address the root causes. But addressing the root causes is hard, unglamorous, and time-consuming, while people - normies and fringe alike - want solutions NOW, so instead nothing is fucking done.
“Harm reduction” apparently includes selling billions in weapons to israel while they carry out genocide and shutting down campus protests speaking out against that genocide. Seems pretty fascist to me.
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