I have neither time, resources nor know-how to like go all out on data privacy. But I try doing things like using Proton for Mail, browsing with DuckDuckGo or Ecosia, messaging on Signal instead of WhatsApp, etc.
But I’m having a hard time responding to people who say “why do you do that, it’s completely pointless since companies like Google have all of our data anyways unless we go all out, and nobody has time for all the effort that takes”.
I’m pretty late but hopefully this helps someone:
Privacy is in the moment. It isn’t just about your SSN, or the email address you had ten years ago even you signed up for Pegging by Peggy newsletters. It’s a moving target and the highest value for the people that want your data is as close to right now as possible.
If you digitally disappeared in this moment the value of all the shit they have on you would rapidly decline.
It also is about as complete a picture as possible. Privacy violating data points are valuable in aggregation. An address and name are only valuable when you can tie it to viewing preferences, voting records, etc. The more data points you can hide, the better.
Also, many (most?) people will be more upset with the person who rocks the boat or is the messenger of bad news than the perpetrator of the real problem. “We’ve tried nothing and are all out of ideas” applies to people you might care about just as much as it does to Schummer.
It’s not “all out there”, unless you let it go out there.
Most interaction with people on privacy-hostile services are out there, yes. But that’s far from “all”.
Public figures? Probably true to some degree.
(Even Linus Torvalds said that. He argued that anything that’s worth being backed up, will probably be).The run of the mill Joe Doe? No.
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In America in 2025, I’d say they’re right*. Flock has cameras all over cities, Palantir has scary face recognition data that iirc uses social media info up to a decade old, DOGE made a database of everyone’s social security information that other bureaus probably have access to, ICE uses Israeli spyware that bypasses end-to-end-encryption, and state governments are trying to push VPN bans and ID checks to use web services. On the federal level, both MAGA and Democrats are pro-surveillance, so you can’t just vote this out, not completely. You also can’t vote with your wallet since the most dangerous surveillance tools exist at the infrastructure level. We’re one step away from turning into China.
*By and large, there’s nothing Americans can do about those things other than protest, normalize pro-privacy rhetoric, try not to support privacy-invading consumer services, and call local- and state-level elected leaders when new anti-privacy legislation is introduced.
In most cases, privacy efforts can help for some use cases, but there is no perfect threat model anymore, and it’s mostly a symbolic act of protest these days, which is useful. Lemmy is the only social media I use these days, Linux is my daily and only driver, I’m boycotting tech oligarchs like Google, and I gravitate toward privacy-focused products and services. We need an active privacy advocacy bloc that will support causes and alternative technologies if we ever want things to get better, if not today than in the future.
One big thing people can still do is evade targeted ads. I probably have an ad profile stored somewhere, but I use adblock and enough FOSS apps that I haven’t gotten targeted ad in years.
We’re one step away from turning into China.
China does not have nearly as much surveillance as the US.
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good and if not for yourself but your friends and family. You would want them being stalked online right?
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
Ok, what is your social security number, email address with password, your date of birth, and if applicable, your mother’s maiden name.
It’s all out there right?
Then property ownership doesn’t matter, because the land is ‘all out there’ so anyone can go/live anywhere regardless of who owns the property, right?
Well… Yes, actually, that’s how it should be.
Please give me you bank account password, it’s all out there anyway.
Ask to see their bank account transactions.
If the data is out there then they should have no problem showing you.
The police have a pretty low hanging bar to getting banking information and the police often seem to ignore the laws for the privileges of using their badges as leverage over private industry and companies. And they use that banking access to fuck with people that don’t like them.
That shit is not “private.”
But banks/credit unions/companies would rather sell you twice than tell you that.
Well, knowing banking information is different from getting their password. One is info like balance and details while the other allows me to transfer all your money.
Or ask their phone and browse through all the photos.
Not that I disagree with the general mindset but, this isn’t a valid comparison because its unequal. It’s misinterpreting what those people are saying. There is a difference between giving your landlord a spare key and hanging that spare key on the community bulletin board.
What people really mean when they say “it’s already out there” is that people with the skillset or job to obtain the data have the ability to, not that the everyday person has the ability to. It’s not unknown the information is already out there, but that doesn’t mean that you would want to just publicly disclose the info.
“Privacy is dead” only once you lose all legal rights to your own information. It may be “already out there”, but at least you still have some legal recourse for when your information is being used by a 3rd party, without your consent. (or at least it should)
No one should have the right to just clone your identity, or make AI images in your likeness, or even sell your confidential information to advertisers, against your wishes. If there aren’t laws already protecting your rights in that regard, where you live…there should be.
I’ve had moderate success by using a handful of quotes over the years whenever this topic comes up with friends or family.
“Arguing that you don’t care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don’t care about free speech because you have nothing to say.” - Edward Snowden
This quote can substitute out the “free speech” bit for “gun rights” if you are talking to a gun nut.
“I like to close the bathroom door when I’m taking a shower. It doesn’t mean I’m doing anything immoral in there, I just have the right to privacy.” - Anonymous
A fair followup question when they say “why bother, it’s pointless anyway,” that might provoke some thought on their part is: “Do you ever make any effort at all toward a goal that is ultimately a drop in the bucket? Have you ever recycled a single plastic bottle? Covered the PIN pad when entering your PIN number at an ATM? Walked to the store instead of driven? Written a letter to a congressman? If so, why? The overall effect of your action was probably negligibly small in the grand scheme of things, so why did you bother to put any effort in at all?”
The answer to that question is: just because you can’t get to 100% privacy/eco-friendliness/whatever goal it is you have, doesn’t mean you can’t put in some degree of effort to protect your rights, the earth, or hold your government accountable.
They don’t have to ditch Google entirely in one day. That’s ludicrously hard and even privacy advocates like myself can’t do it easily. You take incremental steps when you are ready. Ditch Chrome when you have the bandwidth and get Firefox. Ditch Google search in favor of DuckDuckGo when you think you can deal with the different experiences. etc, etc. Everyone’s journey is different.
Another one is “Just cause you have nothing to hide today, doesn’t mean you won’t tomorrow.”
Especially looking at the US, the assumption that what is worth hiding can’t change is dangerous. You’re comments/conversations that are legal today may be used against you in the future.
“If you think privacy doesn’t matter then i invite you to shit in the square” Btw, i 100% agree with you
I don’t even try to argue with these people. Thankfully, I have all the important people in my life trained up on proper cybersecurity practices and how to be good end users. It makes dealing with any tech issues for them so much easier lol. I only got yelled at once by a relative and I told him he needed to fix his tone before I’d fix his computer. He hasn’t given me any issues since lol
Tell them about surveillance pricing. It’s a good example because the information “already out there” is used to influence how much the stuff they buy costs. Another example would be unsecure home security/doorbell cameras that anyone on the internet can watch (if you know where to find them). Their camera feeds are “already out there”, so ask them if that’s ok.
