I notice this with people talking about capitalism, obviously, but honestly what drove me to make this post is the attempted arguments against veganism. They’re basically 95% unoriginal and fail under the most basic of scrutiny.

Take, for example, “not eating the meat won’t bring the cow back.” Under basically any logical scrutiny, this is a clear double standard to any other purchasing decision in capitalist society, and doesn’t really make any sense. But I’ve seen in so many times over the years, so much so that im planning on becoming a vegan over a period of time. Not because of any arguments vegans make, but because somehow pro-meat eaters are losing a debate to a brick wall, and the conclusions I’ve made myself have convinced myself that I should be vegan. And I’m really starting to ask, do people just…like…ctrl+c ctrl+v arguments in their head?

I…try to be nice. But…how little respect to your own ability do you have if you do that? Not only to justify something you really don’t have to, but something you obviously dont care about. I mean…sorry, it’s just baffling to me.

In the words of Kim Kitsuragi from disco elysium, “I dont understand officer…please, help me understand”

  • amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml
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    3 days ago

    This is effectively the rightist libertarian “vote with your wallet” argument though. It is based on the belief that market forces are moved entirely by the magic of supply and demand, and so the idea is that issues in society will simply be fixed by people changing what it is they demand in the market.

    The reality does not operate like this. In practice, one of the most common capitalist practices is to invent a problem and then try to sell people the solution. With that practice, it doesn’t matter whether you wanted the product because the point is they’re going to try to find a way to change reality so that you want and/or need the product they want to sell; either change your beliefs about the world so that you’ll buy, or change your actual material realities so that you are more dependent on it. An example of this in practice is cars in the US. Surely a lot of people would love high speed trains across the country, like China has. But they don’t get the option. The car industry and the fossil fuel industry ensures that they don’t have that choice. Robust public transit would easily outcompete the horrible experience that is gridlock traffic and preventable accidents. And as long as the alternative is not an option, people can’t just go, “Fuck cars, I’m going to take the train.” In some areas, there just isn’t an alternative. What little public transit there is, is not feasible without an obscenely long trip, if it’s feasible at all. Alternatives like bikes are not feasible if the distance is too geographically big. If everyone in the US stopped using cars tomorrow, the industry would not stop producing cars. What would happen is society would shut down because a huge amount of it is dependent on cars.

    At a glance, this sort of thing can sound like moral excuses, but it is how capitalism works. It forces you to have culpability in one perspective and look like excuses in another. No one is getting out of it with a clean conscience if you want to moralize about it badly enough. But moralizing about it on an individual level has yet to fix the problems and there is no reason to think it will start doing it. I am not exactly an expert on dialectics, but I feel pretty confident in saying that while moral shaming can at times play a part in the component of dialectics where we influence the world, you won’t change the world on that alone. You have to take into account what people’s material realities are and address them.

    I think a much more useful thing to do in the face of someone saying, “not eating the meat won’t bring the cow back” is to ask what it is about not eating meat that gives them pause. Do they just really like the taste? Is it hard to change their diet? Are there traditional foods they eat and a sense of culture tied up in it? Rather than focusing purely on the argument as sound or unsound. And perhaps more importantly, what is it going to accomplish getting them to go vegan? Just harm reduction for the time being? What is the broader strategy toward dismantling factory farming as a practice?

    • Oppopity@lemmygrad.ml
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      3 days ago

      People do have that option though. It’s not cars vs non-existent rail transport. It’s meat vs beans.

      If everyone stopped eating meat, cows wouldn’t be farmed for meat.

      The fact that now supermarkets have entire vegan sections or vegan variants of non-vegan products is proof of a deman for vegan products. People that could be spending money of meat, are spending on vegan alternatives instead.

      • amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml
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        2 days ago

        So you’re just going to ignore the part about the importance of political power and organizing, huh. Fascinating.

              • amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml
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                2 days ago

                This might be the most childish behavior I’ve seen on this instance. I hope no one sees this thread and thinks it is the normal here, cause it’s not.

                • FuckBigTech347@lemmygrad.ml
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                  1 day ago

                  Every thread here about veganism ends up like this.
                  Ironically, browsing lemmygrad for a few years has given me a negative bias towards vegans and veganism in general.

                  • amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml
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                    17 hours ago

                    I can see why if you’ve encountered this with any regularity. It seems to me that it is a poor representation of those views. In contrast, every time I’ve met someone in RL who is vegetarian or vegan, they are pretty low key about it and basically just bring it up if there are situations where dietary restrictions need to be considered. Not that I think people should be going to the point of not even saying it if they believe strongly about it, but like, “pick your battles” kind of thing, I guess is what I’m getting at? Unless they’re someone who is just really skillful at chatting ideology calmly with another person like they’re talking about the weather, then they may be able to broach those subjects with anyone and everyone they meet without it feeling like someone is on trial. I’m not like that though, certain subjects and points of view will make it hard for me to stay calm, so I tread lightly with who all and when all I even get into some subjects. Cause if I lose my cool, not only might I harm a relationship that could otherwise be worked on, it makes it hard to think persuasively as well. And people generally don’t want to listen to someone who is going off on them.